Also see this article for Moog/Synthesizers.com comparisons: http://www.synthesizers.com/review11.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This thread occured on the Synthesizers.com forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synthesizerscomgroup Nov. 2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heya Pat; Yes, I am/was a very big Moodies fan. Saw them many times over the years. With Pinder and Moraz. You sounded like someone I sold my Mellotron to years ago. Sold it for $300, 1982. How screwed up was I. Anyway, how do you like Rogers' filters for the system? I am actually tempted to find a Moog 901b Filter to install in the cab. They run about $1000 + in Ebay. Rich.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- errr, not to be nit-picky... but a 901b is an Oscillator module. the Filters were 904a (low-pass) 904b (high-pass) 904c Filter Coupler... www.moogarchives.com for referrence... Markk ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why? $1,000 for a filter is certainly not cost effective. Users seem pretty satisfied that the Q150 sounds Moogish -- even Konkuro was happy, imagine that! ;-) Besides, it takes more than just a VCF to sound exactly like a Moog. Make *unique* sounds, don't go overboard trying to emulate one particular cliche. For $1,000, you can buy several modules! While I have no business telling you how to spend your money, I personally can't see spending that much on one module. For a grand you could buy a Q150 VCF, a Q107+Q161 (VCF+mixer), a VCO, a 4-channel mixer, an EG, a VCA, and have money left over, just for one example. So much for my two cents. john ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- And... don't forget about things like... a module that old, and any refurbishing that may or may not need to be done.... aquiring parts... comatability... don't get me wrong... all of these things can be solved/done, etc. I just think John is right. I doubt that anyone buy you would even know that you would have a Moog filter. Something like 99.98% of everone else would never notice the difference. Good programming technique will give you as much "Moog-like" sound as you'll ever need or want. Shhhhhhhoot.... (being pollite, here)... look for "bang for the buck". You'll be glad you did. At least, that (in this case) is my opinion... for what it's worth.... (about a-dollar-two-eighty-nine). As an added suggestion, email my friend Guido. He's had dotcom... several Moog's, ARP's, Buchla... and many others. Ask his opinion. He's a pro engineer/guitarist/keyboardist/synthesists.... and he's got a good set of ears. Guido has an enormous amount of experience in the refurbishing of old, crapped-out Moogs (and others). He can tell you all about it. ~Morb~ As a former Moog System 55 owner, I can say that the Q150 filter is as good as a 904a filter to my ears... it really is. and again before anyone wants to start a flame war... I put them side by side... and actually Rogers was a bit "cleaner" too... so dare I say, almost better. I think many of us are still in the "awe" of the word Moog, and the elusiveness of rare systems and modules... it's like finding a lost sunken treasure to many of us... it is where we base all of our starting points of opinions... but maybe... just maybe, try for the moment to get past that feeling... it's time to move forward, with the new kid on the block and 30 years from now, we'll be singing the same praises of high revere to Roger as well as Dr. Moog... I was over at Zon's house yesterday, and we were playing his massive .com... you know, we both still say the same thing... why spend the ridiculous extra money when you simply don't have to. Man, a $1000 buck of .com would be way fun! We both drooled over the possibilities of an unlimited budget and a wall of modules... and the ability to play live... Heck I at one point started to build a 904a... with the help of another friend, who gave me pictures of circuit boards and schematics, I had all the stuff I needed, but abandoned the project after playing with the Q150. Just an opinion... take it for what it's worth. Markk ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come to think of it... there are MANY of us here who have owned Moog Modular's... Myself, Zon Guido Gregg to name a few... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep, I've been 'lucky' enough to have owned a little Moog (kinda like a 12). When the oscillators WOULD track, it sounded AMAZING. However, I nearly pulled my hair out trying to maintain the little beast. I spent more time tuning than playing. BUY MORE DOT COM! TZUICA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I sold my moog system 55, to buy my ‘com. I think the system 55 owned me, I spent all of my time restoring and tuning it. With the ‘com I can leave it and come back days later and it still works and is still in tune. Rod Swanson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Q-119 seems to be just as stable as the Q-106. I can leave a sequence tuned... weeks later, it's still perfect. And while on the subject... Quantizer! One way or the other, a quantizer or two keeps popping-up in my crystal ball. There's a fair amount of talk about that on some of the other message boards. I sure would like one that has a dotcom logo on it! ; ) (hint, hint) ~Morb~ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like both the Q107 and Q150 filters. I use the Q150 most of the time and am able to obtain some very close to Moog like tones. On occasion, I will switch over to the Q107 and really like the way it sounds as well. I plan on adding more of each to my system. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- My experience has been that the older stuff is very cost prohibitive for most. I have a pretty decent budget to spend on this stuff (I uhh...went synth crazy the last three years...) and found that it ain't enough to pay the stoopid money for the older gear...ya gotta get it fixed/refurbished most of the time. Not being a tech, I found myself spending major dollars on upkeep and repairs. This caused me to sell off almost all of my synths. Bottom line? A pain in the arse. Period. Almost not worth the hassle... for me. MUCH easier to buy a new synth and, umm... learn some real technique. That is the key to ANY synth...new or old. Great technique beats hype every time! As for sound vs. bang for the buck... one would be hard pressed to find a better synth than Roger's stuff. IMO the best synth out there today. The new 200e Buchla looks groovy, though....pricey but very groovy. (Buchla nut here...) Fat and sassy.... highly controllable and stable as a mofo! I had no problems getting my Dotcom to sound like a Moog or an Arp or a Buchla. OK.... I got them to sound close. (See the "Dondotcom" piece on my 'artist page' on the Dotcom site. Better yet... buy a copy of Thelonious Moog! D'oh!) The Dotcom modules were also alot more flexible than the old Moog/Arp stuff. If yer gonna invest in an old rig...get one someone has already had restored. Man, I bought so much junk... sheesh. Expensive. Trust me... pay the big bucks all at once...it won't hurt as much. ;) Another tip when buying vintage synths.... stay away from "as-is" gear. If the seller will not let you have a 24-48 hr. approval period and offer a full refund...DON'T BUY IT. An honest seller has nothing to hide. If a guy is selling "broken/as-is" well, cool. Just my rule of thumb these days. Like a buddy of mine often says... yer mileage may vary. What I would suggest to a fella that wanted a Moog voice is to buy 3-921 b's or 901 b's a 921 or 901 a and a 921 or a 901 master oscillator. Oh... and a 904b LPF. Use yer Dotcom for the rest. It is a cost effective way of getting there without the nightmare of figuring out 30 years of funky mods and neglect. Shoot... get ya a tight vintage Minimoog model D and a 44 space Dotcom and see if anyone can tell! I also had great success with a Moogerfooger LPF pedal w/my Dotcom. I used mine after the entire chain and before the mixer... as an effect. I would do patches with or without a filter sound and send a cv control to the MF 101. Pretty danged close if ya ask me! But don't believe the hype that a MF 101 is 'just like a 904b" It ain't. It is a stomp box. A really cool stomp box... but a stomp box. My too sense... guido ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to chime in here, too - since I have played Moogs for several years and had a big, modular Moog, too. You can see it here: http://www.synthfool.com/images/zonmoog2.jpg I sold it last year and I don't miss it one iota since I now compose my synthesizer music with a three-cabinet (and growing) Arrick synth. I love the sound of the Moog - no question about that. Bob Moog knows how to make a great sounding synthesizer. But, Roger Arrick does, too. And, the fact that my new synth is NEW is a huge advantage. I don't have one scratchy pot in my synth :-) I have also reviewed some contemporary analog synthesizers for Keyboard magazine (Doepfer, Analogue Systems, Analogue Solutions) and the Synthesizers.com is my personal choice for the music I like to compose and play. I have also owned ARP 2600s and ARP 2500s and while I preferred the sound of the 2500s over the 2600s, I prefer the Synthesizers.com sound over both of those and any of the other modular synths I have owned or reviewed. The Synthesizers.com synth is easy for beginners to understand, yet it offers enough versatility to satisfy the needs of veteran synthesists like myself. It's amazing how much synth for the dollar you can get in a brand-new Synthesizers.com vs. a vintage synthesizer. If you have to have vintage because you can afford to collect, that is one thing, but if you're looking for a first-class, modular analog synthesizer to play and get inspired with - look no further than www.synthesizers.com Zon Vern Pyles ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi all, Here's my spin on this... I'm one of those crazy people who gig live with vintage synths. I don't blink at hauling around a B3, Mellotron or even a big Moog. I gigged a IIIc very similar to Emerson's for many years (a bit larger actually). I took a hiatus for about a decade from playing to pursue other music interests (live sound), and started renting out my old vintage synths to pro studios, which incidentally is where my IIIc is now. But of course I got the bug again to play out. The idea of putting together a large production Pink Floyd tribute band had been floating around in my head since I was 16 (I'm 43 now). But the idea of bringing around my vintage keys now was dubious. Not because of size or weight, but because of fragility of the gear, some of which was approaching 40 years in age. The maintenance alone was going to be prohibitive. I knew I wanted a modular, mostly for the "gawk and awe factor", as well as the sheer sonic power only a modular can give you. Now Rick Wright didn't use Moog. He used mostly Oberheim SEM in the 8 Voice package. So I began looking for one of those. Holy smokes!!! Not only rare, but the prices for a fully functional pristine 8 Voice had gone through the roof. Ok ... fine. So I started looking at the DOHpler stuff, of which I bought and sold almost in an instant. No sir ... I just don't like it. Then one day on a goof I typed in "www.synthesizers.com" just to see who had this URL, and low and behold, I found Roger Arrick and his synths. Being an old school Moog owner, seeing Rogers stuff I fell in love at the first glimpse of his website. But the question was, "How did it sound, and how well would it gig"? I lurked at this group (and others) for a long time. Made phone calls, talked to people I knew and other I didn't know, and asked a zillion questions. I heard nothing bad about Roger's synths. So I bought a 22 space system for evaluation. I compared it to my MiniMoog D first. Very comparable, and much more versatile. Then the real test for me. I compared it sonically to a 4Voice Oberheim a friend graciously lent me. I found I could emulate the sonic character of the old Oberheim very nicely. I was quickly finding out that Arrick synths, with some tweaking, twiddling and patching could be used to emulate much more than the obvious Moog comparison. Sounds that are unique to old ARP, Oberheim, Roland modulars, and others, could be emulated very closely, if not exactly, with an Arrick synth. This was a wonderful discovery for me, and very satisfying. Holding a MSEE degree and doing some design work early on in my life, I also found Roger's design work very smart for gigging. I knew these modulars would hold up well, and could be maintained easily on the road. This was the final determining factor for going for a full sized modular for this particular gig. I now own two 22 space walnut cabs, and the infamous Purple Synthesizer which came to me in a round about way. The rig has two Q150's, two Q107's, 8 Oscillators, various "aid" modules, panner modules, clippers, and other utility modules. I will tell you right now, this modular is the best thing I have ever played. It is rock solid stable, quiet as hell, sounds massive and subtle, and has not given me one problem of any kind. Something my Moog IIIc cannot say (except of course for the sounding massive and subtle thing). I own an Arrick controller, but instead use a Moog 952a Dual Voice controller instead. This gives me duophonic capability, a pitch wheel and modulation wheel. Funny thing, I have had more trouble with the Moog controller than the Arrick gear itself. So after rounding off the rig with an ARP SE-IV, a Clavinet D6, a Mini D, Mellotron 400, and a computer running Reason and other virtual instruments, I can do just about anything I want live. Incidentally, I use NI B4 for my Hammond sounds which I will tell you sounds amazing. I'm saving my pennies right now for a new Hammond/Suzuki B3p, but in the meantime the software Hammond works fine. But of course the Arrick Modular is the centerpiece of the rig, literally. I use it on every song with synth sounds. For "Welcome to the Machine" it is used as the lead synth and it sounds exactly like a SEM based 8Voice Oberheim. Not to mention the visual effect playing that particular song on a big Arrick modular has on the audience (and on me I must admit). It's just fun, fun, fun. Now all I need is a Laser Projection Module for the top center module position. A nice fan effect, modulated by the Arrick's audio emanating forth from the synth itself would be kinda neato! And very Floyd! Look if you want to make comparisons, go ahead. I don't have to anymore. I know I can achieve any sound I need with my Arrick synth. And do so with the same impact, tone, and character as any vintage analog synth. Not to mention the Arrick can do some things other can't. And do so without the associated costs and maintenance hassles. John LeVasseur ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just to add some. As most have said, the cost and maintanance issue with old moog modulars is a major factor against it. Unless you want a museum piece, buy something new. Another thing to remember is that Moog did his best with the technology and componets at hand, which is by now quite old. Roger Arrick is doing the same today with the synthesizers.com, and the sound quality is vastly superior. Also, the moog modular modules leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to controllers. Unless you have a large, complete moog modular, you need to do a lot of extra patching, while you can do the same fairly easy on a dotcom. I have both moog and dotcom, and love them both, but with moog there is a lot of work; patching, tuning, adjusting, servicing, irritation and working delays and interruption. With the dotcom it is quicker to work and you get instant feedback and satisfaction. Now, there is one thing that havenīt benn mentioins so far: - Does the moog modular sound better? - Does it nurture musical inspiration more than anyone else? No, not really. I love moog synths, always have. But; even a "bad" synth can sound very good, and a brilliant synth can sound lousy - it all depends on the sound programmer and the performing musician (which is usually the same person). Your imagination is your biggerst obstacle in achieveing your musical (and sound) goals. Remember that the moog modular was originally made so that musicians could make electronic music, with having to be supported by technical clerks in white collars. The very same is true for the synthesizers.com modular; you donīt have to be an engineer, or retro synth special serviceperson to use and maintain them; you can just whip them out of the box and start making music instantly. tw. :) -----------------------------------------------------------------------------